Sybil
Full Member
"I think a plan is just a list of things that don't happen."
Posts: 134
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Post by Sybil on Aug 29, 2018 2:17:02 GMT
I have seen the new money system brought up in enough different threads and in game by enough different people that I think we should probably have a central place to discuss our thoughts and what we can do to make it work. I am going to start us off with some points I have thought of and seen others make. There's a lot, so I'll number mine so people can point to specific ones to discuss.
(To avoid confusion "real" money = money tracked by this website)
1 - Are we all in or all out? I don't think in between will work. We can't have some transactions be real and others not I don't think. And I have seen Suzie say she wants all transactions to use the money system I believe (I could very well be wrong). That means everyone with a character sheet will need to use only real money and everyone who doesn't have one...well they will need to make one to participate in buying things.
2- Are the long term players out of luck? Yes, I left and am somewhere in between, but others have mentioned (they can speak or not) that it seems unfair that everyone starts from 0. Many of us have had "jobs" on the server for extended periods. Ones which we sometimes do not enjoy doing (yes we enjoy the overall experience but sometimes it IS work to go and keep serving drinks or act like a cop all the time).
3 - Two leads into three. Are people getting paid for jobs?
4 - Locking money to two skills will be problematic. Someone mentioned high level players will need to retrain, but more than that. Min maxers, who I am sure will come, will quickly see there isn't much need for money in combat besides RP and put people who chose to RP RP at a disadvantage by not needing money skills and just pumping combat stats.
5 - I have seen the discussion on charging for hotel rooms and apartments. Again the problem is...these don't affect anything and people can always simply take the subway home as Betty RPs doing. I will use myself as an example: If I have the same money stat as another player...say we both make $1000 a month. He chooses to not have an apartment. He can still RP sleeping just fine. Yet he will come out as technically "the rich" one in the long term because he gains $1000 each month while I gain 0. This is also true of the hotel.
6 - Do we charge for drinks, food, etc? It probably wouldnt be fair to do, because we pay nothing as a business to serve them....and if you want business to start having expenses well...that is a rabbit hole no one wants to go down.
7 - Are prices for items based on value as a game mechanic or real world value? If apartments cost real world value but items do not...that will prolly be difficult to manage. (For example right now simple spell components are $25 I believe...I dont know if that is single use or not, but many of the spell components like...sulfur, I can get a 10lbs bag of for like $6 on amazon hehe, something to consider).
8 - Loot. Selling items and loot. For example today I could have picked up and walked away with an M4 Carbine - even if it's stolen from the military thats still gotta be worth a ton on the black market. How do we address someone picking up 3 or 4 of those and selling them to an NPC?
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Please note I do not have good answers for all of these, or any off the top of my head. But I think they need to be discussed and decided on fairly quickly since we have like...3 different systems going on: RP only, "Real", and people tracking money with no ties to the forum amount.
ANNND DISCUSS!!!
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Post by Annikaa on Aug 29, 2018 2:57:06 GMT
I actually like the current system. I do not want to be bogged down with a detailed system. Keep it simple.
The same goes for spell components. I do not want to buy bat guano. I have the component or not. The detail is nice for rp, but for practical use, forget it.
This is supposed to be about the rp. I think one of the original ideas for the money system was for use with the casino.
And this system only works for PC's. Tourists and guests come for vacation and to have fun. It doesn't matter how much money they have.
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Betty
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by Betty on Aug 29, 2018 3:10:06 GMT
I don't mind if trivial things (point 6) are dealt with using 'RP' money and just treated like regular day to day expenses. We definitely do need to integrate everything into the new system though, which will probably involve each player sort of negotiating how much they should logically have at this point and Suzie manually changing balances to reflect that.
Once that's done we can just roll with the new system, and it'll be up to players to keep each other in line as far as demanding 'real' money from each other for things deemed valuable enough, whether it be drugs or lap dances.
Point 8 is interesting and I would expect selling something like that would involve either a lot of risk, or selling it at far less than it's worth to get around the risk factor. Actually keeping and using the items (like Betty has done) would be different, but also involves risks (she can't afford to be caught with a high powered weapon that is normally only issued to the military). I generally just leave it to Suzie's discretion myself.
I think the apartment idea is potentially a nice way to give dedicated, active players something private of their own to work toward, if they want it. It's not mandatory at all but if someone feels like it's worth the money, having to pay for it would be a clear and fair way to ensure the spaces aren't being wasted for long. As long as old players get a minor stat reset and some fair amount of grandfathered wealth, it shouldn't be a big deal. You can also have people team up as roommates to split the cost just like real life, which creates unique RP opportunities.
If someone has other ambitions that makes 'wasting' money on an apartment seem like it isn't worthwhile, then there's no problem with them just ignoring the apartments completely.
I believe Suzie also now allows new players to start at level 5 or so to give them some stats to play with if they wish, which should give them ample opportunity to put enough points in money making skills to afford to live out of a hotel if they want, which could also be the assumed situation for casual players who drop in and buy rooms with 'RP' money.
Just throwing my own thoughts out there as they come to me, I'm definitely interested in what others think of the situation
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Sybil
Full Member
"I think a plan is just a list of things that don't happen."
Posts: 134
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Post by Sybil on Aug 29, 2018 3:46:10 GMT
I actually like the current system. I do not want to be bogged down with a detailed system. Keep it simple. The same goes for spell components. I do not want to buy bat guano. I have the component or not. The detail is nice for rp, but for practical use, forget it. This is supposed to be about the rp. I think one of the original ideas for the money system was for use with the casino. And this system only works for PC's. Tourists and guests come for vacation and to have fun. It doesn't matter how much money they have. I sooooort of agree, but it will make a difference in terms of charging for the hotel and the apartments or not. Plus I don't really get the casino thing, that has even more of a connotation that who ends up wealthy will be totally independent of who wants to RP that way ya know? |
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Post by Shepard on Aug 29, 2018 4:18:20 GMT
Being new to the game I sadly don't know how any of the money systems work and asking people have resulted in different answers. I assumed the money and items were based on what you bought here, but it seems people can give themselves pretty much anything they like within reason (and some items not purchasable here). And job payments also don't seemed to get disguised when people get a job. Now I haven't finished reading everything here on the forum and I'm sure I've missed something simple which explains it all to me about how you get paid for a job so I'll keep reading but there seems to be a divide somewhat on which money system to use.
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Post by Suzie on Aug 29, 2018 7:15:24 GMT
Let's start from the start. The main idea behind this money system is to bring people to interact more with each other. Some people have character sheets that will give them a lot of money, some others will focus on fighting. The correct path should be : What i want my character to be in RP ? Then how can i make it fit in the character sheet ? It's a roleplay server, not a MMO. I don't blame anyone or don't attack anyone on this. I just want to be clear about my goals with this place. Without system we will end up with people being incredibly rich just because they feel it, having been cursed with really huge powers (but it's a burden because you understand...) and several things like that that i have seen way too much often here. I'm not on a self-centered trip where i want my character to be the strongest one (i already read something like that lol), the main goal is to have a storyline that make sense, and players who have to work, train hard, try hard, to win. Otherwise if i simply come with an antagonist that is most of the time well thought with a background behind it and some goals, and that some overpoweredRP player simply show up to make fun of it and throw him a spell from the bootykikkypootylolilol world he come from and instantly kill the main antagonist, well.... There is no more storyline, no more quest. Simply go home guys, theses ten minutes were fun. The same goes with money. If tomorrow you need some big and pricey stuff for something, where would be the fun if someone simply popup and "yeah, i'm rich, don't worry i can buy thousand of them". Sorry for the parenthesis that might be out of subject, but not totally. To get back to the subject, somehow, how to make money ? - Events (there is a system of loot), - Offering services / items related to your skill (i already saw that with dark web), - Asking system money when you do a job (note that now everyone start with 100$), - Supposedly, a shop owner or something like that should have some points in society, win money daily and then give some to his employees, - Why not ask some money to train people in RP ? Like giving hacking or martial arts / athletics lessons ? - Whatever you can imagine, you can even rob people, put bomb in the city and ask the cops for some money to remove it, really whatever just your imagination, - Participate in "money" events like the one i advertised for the boxing or blackjack tournament (and i'm willing to let players organize things like that too if they have a good idea and organize it well) that clearly look to interest nobody  I also gave my opinion on that, but there is the money system that will let you buy item and will be used for some events requirements, but it doesn't cover bills, clothes, food, electricity etc etc... This should be covered with "rp" money so it make sense that not all the money is added to the system. The appartments is something else again. I might consider that the "old" appartments have been bought by their owner and they won't need to pay for it. But there will be maybe 6 or less uncustomized one. For me it make sense that they aren't easy to get and are limited to players really getting invested in this. For the minmax players, there will always be some, but i think that the system is pretty much preventing it (and that's why i'm so touchy about it and always trying to keep it balanced as much as possible). Money is also offering some items that can compensate the one or two points you have sacrificed. Like with Kevlar or something like that. The other thing is : you make a choice. If i make a business(wo)man tomorrow with 20 in society (so much money $_$) i won't expect to be able to fight against a military character who put all this point in fighting skills. But clearly i can hire a few bodyguards with this money. Wanting money / powers / charm and everything doesn't make sense (refer to the paragraph up there). |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2018 8:33:08 GMT
Ok but here is where the forum money system breaks down for me, and I will use what happened tonight in RP because it's a good example and happens often. A guy walks into the club, he is not a "regular" like the rest of us, he does not have a character sheet and therefore does not have a forum account. He still wants to come in, talk to Angel, get a private dance with her. And why not? He is nice, I have RP'd with him before, he pops in from time to time. So Angel gives him a private dance, he pays her the $100. That's it. Now, imagine the forum system. I have say in OOC - "Woahhh hang on you cant pay me like that, I need you to tab out of the game, go make an account on the forum, and transfer me some money". And actually, would that even work, would he even have any money at the moment of account creation? Regardless, it feels like a burden to have to do it that way. And even if he did have an account, it just seems bothersome to make them tab out of the game, open a browser, log in, transfer money, all while taking time out of the RP to just pay her the money.
Now I know the problem is - "Well where did he get that money from then?" To which I would say "Who knows? Why not ask him?" For all we know, he DOES have a job, just not in our city. And it is perfectly acceptable to assume anyone new that shows up in our city has SOME money, right? I mean, would you really be walking around the city without ANY money at all? Unless you're homeless, chances are you've got some money. Either in cash or in your bank account. I think it would be incredibly ignorant to assume people that don't have a real job in our city are broke and have 0 money. But for for sake of argument and to make things easier, just assume they have a job, and assume they have money for small purchases.
People that play, but do not have character sheets, just classify them as "light RPers". For light RPers, we just assumed they have a job, and they are free to make small purchases, drinks, dances, etc. This will continue to drive the RP and the economy without many problems. But I don't think they should be allowed to make large purchases for any significant amount of power. Suzie could handle this however she wants to ICly. Maybe the government people are monitoring us, and show up, stop the purchase because its shady, etc? But the bottom line for "light RPers" is they are free to make small purchases.
The rest of us are classified as "steady RPers" and I guess we work on an honor or trust system, where we are actively tracking our money in our character sheets. I agree that not everyone should become instantly filthy rich, but let's not over-complicate things.
Maybe the forum money system can still be used to some other degree, but like others said, maybe its a situation of all in or all out? In which case I think all out for me, because I think it hurts RP more than it helps.
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Pain
New Member
Posts: 22
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Post by Pain on Aug 29, 2018 9:26:12 GMT
Ok, here is my 2 cents.
To address Sybils list, imo
1 - Angel has so far put in the best input for me on this, where there is a distinction between "Light" and "Heavy" rping. It is impossible to impose the money system on visitors to the room, that being said I believe all transactions with "Light" rpers doesn't count. If anything it makes them interested in the game and helps integrate them into our play. An example is anyone whom I have come crossed who isnt a PC, I will rp taking the money (Even if its a stupid amount), but as far as I am concerned its monopoly money until they make a character sheet. If they have a character sheet I then explain the transaction takes place on the website not with their fake money (I did this with Franklinn yesterday, where he wanted to give me 200$ but being a new player I knew he didn't have it yet lol). This is the only logical way to handle money otherwise the rules will overwhelm new players and we will continue to have the same cast of characters.
2 - Personally, I liked having my imaginary money, and then the system came into play, where in my mind at least, my money became worthless. I had to adapt my style of play to pick myself back up and grow my wealth that I have now. Being a criminal I would be making money from shady deals and the Society skill ensures that. The jobs your character has picked are intrical to the style of play, but people would get burned out from being the same thing all the time. Bartenders and police are a clear example of this, and with the number of people joining it makes sense for players who are tired of the same thing to branch out into new jobs if they were dissatisfied with their work. Which brings me to 3
3 - Simple answer is Yes, long answer is no. and I'll explain my reasoning. The social skill is tied to your job you have ig, meaning that your primary source of revenue is this skill. However... With this revenue you earn, your job as a good rper in my mind is to spend it when it needs to be spent and save it when you need to save. And example is Sybil would theoretically be making the most money currently because she is the owner of the bar, and is a PC. Meaning anyone who spends real money at the bar, she earns the money and then she, with said money is the one who distributes it back her employees if she wants too. Bartenders who are PC's while Sybil isn't around are obviously who you give the money too when your at the bar, and its up to them weather they keep the money or give it to Sybil. The problem with this is Sybil will have to come up with a standard pricing system all the Blue Angels employees will know. That way she will know she is loosing money based on a fake inventory of items she would have. This in turns makes the game more and more complicated and that is why we have the Social skill to begin with.
4 - Locking the skills to two skills. I usually talk with Suzie in pm about the current Meta of the game and address the problems I see. You cannot prevent Min Maxers. There will always be people who will look at a system and exploit it. As I currently see it, most people are currently in a state of RP only mode until more events can get off the ground. People who regularly engage in combat or those whom have older character builds should be aloud to respec. If someone wants to min max for RP only skills or combat only skills, then they can, that's why the skills are there, so people can play to their play style.
5 - Hotel and Apartments are simply for aesthetic reasons and have no actual place in game play. If someone wants to buy an apartment let them, like I said if that's how they want to play they can do that. It doesn't matter if someone is technically richer then you, your the one who chose to spend the money. Your are equally wealthy at the end of the month. (With an earning of 1,400$ with 1 point in society give or take)
6 - This goes back up to number three where the simple answer is no, long answer yes. IF you want to put in the work to investing in a inventory system of the entire club, you can do that and determine the wealth gained for your store. I personally am willing to give my money to stores cause that's just how I want to play but I know yall are just stocked will beer 24/7. Its up to you as a PC to decide how you want to manage your store, and contribute to richer game play. (An example is I hated the camera system where there was basically an all seeing eye, so I took the time out of my day to make the current floor plans for where the cameras are displayed in the game with the help of Suzie)
7 - This one is a tough one to answer. Technically you could argue the town has its own economy and therefor items are priced based ig only and not on real world values. Items that come into town work on a supply and demand system Suzie has already implemented. If she has decided basic spell components cost this much that's how much they cost. Rent would be much cheaper then the cost of items over all because there is no demand for actual living space in game.
8 - Loot system. I personally have never gained any loot as I haven't been around for combat events, however Betty summed it up pretty good where the point would be if the item is out of place in everyday life it would be harder to sell, I'm sure a roll would come in somewhere. That being said, someone could just make another avi and be a pawnshop per say just to get rid of the items, and give the PC a much shitter deal. Tho this puts more work on Suzie since this would be NPC money. so it would have to be someone whom Suzie allows the power to create money for such a thing.
Hope this helps
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2018 13:34:50 GMT
Ugh, that would really kill business for something like a club, where they really thrive on people just walking in and buying services. It also sort of kills Angels motivation to actually perform private dances. I have given a whopping TWO private dances so far, and they were both for "light" RPers. First of all, all the regulars know Angel is in a relationship, so that sort of kills the fun of the RP. I mean who wants to dance with a girl and know shes not going to put out?? Come on, you know what people are half-expecting walking into the club on here. Not that I would ever have Angel cheat, but it just sort of kills that sexual tension, fun, playful vibe going on. If I can't count money from light RPers, I really have no motivation to dance. I mean, sometimes Pain will pay her, thats happened before. But the same few people tipping her will get old and stale and eventually I can see myself getting burned out on dancing for the same few people over and over.
I really don't like the forum money system  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2018 14:39:19 GMT
Plus, think about this too, people also walk in quite a bit to rent a room from the Hotel. I mean can you blame them? They are trying to Roleplay in a room that says "The Hotel" so what do you think new people are going to try and do? Does that mean the transaction didn't "really" happen if they are new and dont have a character sheet? And that room they rented isn't really rented? So then the Hotel staff have to just pretend they give them the room key, or did they actually give them the room key? Or did they give them the room key, but the moment that person logged off, run upstairs and take it back for the next person? If you we put restrictions on light RPers spending money like this, its going to overly complicate things and cause a bunch of headache. And then its going to confuse them because they thought they were just RPing. "Nah sorry you didn't really rent the room because you aren't official yet, we just pretended you did to make you interested." That's not going to interest them, I don't think. Again, I don't like the forum money system. It makes things way too complicated. I realize the problem you're trying to fix but I can guarantee you that not everyone is going to tab out into the forum and make that transaction every single time it happens in the room. What's going to happen is, the transaction will happen in the room, and people will get lazy and eventually forget or "just not feel like" doing it another time on the forum, and they will stockpile money. Sure you can try and enforce a rule to transfer money FIRST, but I feel like people are going to get lazy with that rule, and eventually stop doing it all together. |
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Pain
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Post by Pain on Aug 29, 2018 14:57:47 GMT
I think your misunderstanding the system Angel. Real money is to distinguish between the two types of players. For people genuinely trying to progress themselves story wise, unlimited money is just not plausible. I said that the "Light" rpers money doesn't count, only for real players. To explain this in depth, any money not used from the forum is not real and you pretend you have gained this fake money. It is like this to let players get a feel for the room, not to trick them.
If they rent a room, they rent a room, they buy a dance, they buy a dance. The reason for this is because "Light" rpers do not have any pull on story wise gaming until they have decided to participate on that level. If they actually wanted to play and they should understand the difference between the two types of money, otherwise they have just come to the room as gods of cash which does nothing for the progression of the player base. The key point is "Light" rpers money is real, but does not count for forum members.
If we don't have a real money system, the game essentially falls apart. Unlimited money leads to unrealistic meta story writing which makes the game less fun by reducing the point of the entire system in place. Whats the point in committing crime if I have all the money I need? What the point in arresting someone, when the cop doesn't need a job? In combat situations why not buy the best items and best armor, its just makes you in a place of perpetual god mode, and there is no work needed to put into a character. At the end of the day its Suzies room, and if she wants it implemented, I don't see how I can argue. The only thing we can do is help her system become its peak state.
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Post by Suzie on Aug 29, 2018 16:35:57 GMT
Pain is right.
You don't want to use this system, don't. It's not like YOU HAVE to use it, not at all. You want to keep playing like that do it.
BUT right now the shop work with this money system and it won't change. And during events (which are totally optional), i will require money from the system.
That's all. There is no other requirements or obligations.
It work exactly the same way with the character sheet, you can come on the place, do your RP, even a consistent RP (like Lassali or Kimmy for example) and it's totally fine.
I don't want to follow the "it's my place, i do what i want" path. I have already do it on some subject especially related to balance, it's not something i enjoy (almost as much as having to deal with OOC stuff each time i connect to play).
Anyway here is the thing, do as you wish as long as it doesn't impact the main storyline (like don't give 100 000$ to a character who follow the story because he is stuck in some bad situation) and keep in mind that i won't consider that money during events. Others admins might, it's their choice.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2018 17:18:28 GMT
Okay that makes a little more sense. My other question is, can I travel outside of the city to purchase things that maybe aren't available in the Hotel City to purchase? Things that are pretty harmless? For instance I was thinking about getting a tattoo or body piercing. Can I RP that Angel traveled to somewhere else in the city to pay for that with her "fake" money?
Because even though having a system in place for this room is fine, I still think there should be some continuity with the outside world. People should be able to travel around to different parts of the bigger world that is 3dx, and make purchases there, as long as its harmless and doesn't give the person any sort of power or anything?
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Post by Suzie on Aug 29, 2018 17:19:37 GMT
Totally yes, of course  |
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Sybil
Full Member
"I think a plan is just a list of things that don't happen."
Posts: 134
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Post by Sybil on Aug 29, 2018 19:05:39 GMT
I think your misunderstanding the system Angel. Real money is to distinguish between the two types of players. For people genuinely trying to progress themselves story wise, unlimited money is just not plausible. I said that the "Light" rpers money doesn't count, only for real players. To explain this in depth, any money not used from the forum is not real and you pretend you have gained this fake money. It is like this to let players get a feel for the room, not to trick them.
If they rent a room, they rent a room, they buy a dance, they buy a dance. The reason for this is because "Light" rpers do not have any pull on story wise gaming until they have decided to participate on that level. If they actually wanted to play and they should understand the difference between the two types of money, otherwise they have just come to the room as gods of cash which does nothing for the progression of the player base. The key point is "Light" rpers money is real, but does not count for forum members.
If we don't have a real money system, the game essentially falls apart. Unlimited money leads to unrealistic meta story writing which makes the game less fun by reducing the point of the entire system in place. Whats the point in committing crime if I have all the money I need? What the point in arresting someone, when the cop doesn't need a job? In combat situations why not buy the best items and best armor, its just makes you in a place of perpetual god mode, and there is no work needed to put into a character. At the end of the day its Suzies room, and if she wants it implemented, I don't see how I can argue. The only thing we can do is help her system become its peak state.
This is an excellent discussion and thank you Pain for addressing all of my points before. Some of my own personal concerns have been alleviated but I still have a couple things to point out. Light RPers then, have a kind of RP advantage over the long term players because they are still free to be as rich as they want and make it rain thousand dollar bills while the rest of us are tied to the system. With private dances which is, honestly, one of my biggest concerns here as the owner and sometimes dancer at Blue Angels I personally don't think it's a great idea to split the difference into real money and fake (monopoly RP money or whatever). I am sure there are some dancers who do it just for the thrill, Angel sounds like one, I do enjoy the RP but - I'd also like to actually MAKE the $100. I guess with Suzie's response though this is something we can decide on as a club. You have lost me with your point about unrealistic "meta" story writing though. The story progressed just fine for months without any sort of formal system. People just knew how wealthy they were and the good RPers were good RPers because they picked a theme and went with it. I knew plenty of people playing rich and plenty playing kinda blue collar. Now don't get me wrong, I have been a strong advocate of needing rules to guide RP. I am just concerned with the direction this one is taking. My biggest concern is this half in / half out idea where people only use it if they want to. Say I take a bunch of time next week and give like 10 private dances eating up my RP time because I want to "earn" more money. If all those people are light RPers...frankly the usual type that wants to do that sort of thing, I am no richer, but that amount of money is still gonna be required for story progress. Honestly if we are just trying to have this system in place to gate story progression and powerful items let's just not call it straight up money. Let's have it be some unique currency circulated amongst the underground of the city. I dunno, mysterious golden dubloons or something. That's be cool, and an interesting story for later. Everyone "in the know" knows they are valuable and will accept them for certain things. That way those involved in the plot can exchange them with other people involved in the plot without us getting bogged down with: "Do I have enough money to buy a drink?" Then I can say: Yeah a private dance is $100 OR since I know you and we are both part of this group I'll charge you 10 gold dubloons instead (and this becomes an actual transaction). Maybe that idea would help with everyone's concerns? |
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